The following is a transcript of an interview between, Chris Matthews (reportedly) of MSNBC, an American Journalist and the then, Cardinal Bergoglio. Itis very clear, why the interview was never broadcast. This Pope is a breath of fresh air; with a very enlightening, clear understanding of
social justice. It is clear that Matthews never understood or learned
SNOPES.COM, a site run by liberals, claims this interview never took place but since there is no evidence on either side to disprove it or prove it, we have posted it since the ideas exchanged are well worth reading.
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REPORTER: Welcome Cardinal.
BERGOGLIO: Thank you. Happy to speak with you.
REPORTER: Well, let me get into it directly. Last Conclave, you were
almost elected Pope. Can this happen again?
BERGOGLIO: What? That I will almost be the Pope, again?
REPORTER: No. Will you be the next Pope?
BERGOGLIO: Friend, I’m only jesting with you. I understand the
question. I will not be the next Pope.
REPORTER: Why not?
BERGOGLIO: I chose not to. God has someone else in mind, I’m certain.
REPORTER: But you would take the job if it were offered.
BERGOGLIO: I think not.
REPORTER: Why not.
BERGOGLIO: I believe I’m too embroiled in the secular fiasco. It is a
spiritual job, and I’m a soldier. Look at the nature of power. In
Europe first and now in America, elected men have taken it upon
themselves to indebt their people to create an atmosphere of
dependency. And why? For their own selfish need to increase their own
personal power. I’ve been a keen observer of the effect this has on
the people, especially the poor. They are very good at creating
poverty where there is no reason to explain it. My job is try to
alleviate poverty and if that means to oppose the cause then I will
not be Pope.
REPORTER: But you are worried you would be a spend thrift pope?
BERGOGLIO: Friend, where did you go to school?
REPORTER: La Salle College High School in Pennsylvania and…
BERGOGLIO: And after that?
REPORTER: College of the Holy Cross.
BERGOGLIO: They told me you were Catholic. Once elected, the Pope is
by virtue of the promise of Jesus to Peter, the Pope is preserved from
the possibility of error. God would change any spend thrift politician
into a responsible Pope. I’m just saying I’m not that man.
REPORTER: So what is your job?
BERGOGLIO: My job is to ask you? Why are men creating poverty?
REPORTER: What do you mean?
BERGOGLIO: I mean that poverty is part of the natural condition and
that is bad enough. But my task is to prevent the aggravation of this
condition. The ideology that adds to the poverty, must be denounced. I
have and this is the reason I will not be Pope. I have a saying for
myself, “no more poverty than God originally intended, in the fall
BERGOGLIO: It is a spiritual choice, and I’m a political person. I’m
sorry. I know you will make more money from this interview, if I’m
Pope. Or want to be Pope. But I’m sorry. I can’t help you. God has
already chosen someone, anyway. Right? You learned this in school?
REPORTER: Yes. Well? Where are you on the issues that matter most,
issues about contraception, women priests?
BERGOGLIO: This might be a surprise to you, but I am Catholic. We are
Catholic. It isn’t an issue and for you to pretend that it is being
debated, goes against God.
REPORTER: If you were Pope, then you would not change anything?
BERGOGLIO: Certainly God would direct the new Pope to have more
compassion for these newly created poor. And if there is any social
justice in the Church, the new Pope would have a stern word for the
creators of the new situation.
REPORTER: But you are staunchly orthodox on the issues of abortion,
contraception, and same-sex marriage.
BERGOGLIO: Yes, I am Catholic.
REPORTER: You were punished for opposing same-sex marriage in
Argentina. You opposed free contraception and the government exiled
you. What do you have to say about that?
BERGOGLIO: I am Catholic.
REPORTER: In the secular world, as you say, you follow the
conservative line. You oppose, uh.., same-sex marriages, very popular
with young people. You are conservative on birth control. Won’t that
be the doom of the Church, alienating young people who support reality
BERGOGLIO: Since God created the world, he also created reality. You
seem to be arguing that a man can’t be Catholic, in reality. Son,
you are a Catholic?
REPORTER: Yes.., of course. I meant no disrespect.
BERGOGLIO: You don’t have to worry about offending me.
REPORTER: Okay, good. Can a, uh.., Pope even be elected, if he is
pro-choice or pro-love? I mean isn’t the election sort of fixed in
favor of anti-abortion and anti-gay marriage?
BERGOGLIO: Yes, the election is fixed, by God.
REPORTER: Very witty.
BERGOGLIO: Well, you did ask.
REPORTER: It is being reported in America that you are against
marriage equality. Is that why you feel that you can’t be Pope?
BERGOGLIO: God chooses the Pope, and God also made men and women different.
REPORTER: But you are… a conservative and oppose abortion !
BERGOGLIO: Friend, the expression on your face, gives you away.
REPORTER: I’m sorry, I’m just trying to do my job.
BERGOGLIO: And what job is that?
REPORTER: I’ve been sent to interview eight men, in line for the Papacy.
BERGOGLIO: And I guarantee you that they all oppose abortion. So?
BERGOGLIO: So, you feel like you need to alienate the eight, from the flock?
REPORTER: That isn’t it. How can the church attract young people, when
it is opposed to abortion and contraception?
BERGOGLIO: Young people are just as attracted to the truth, as they
are convenience and expediency. So we will call it a draw.
REPORTER: Doesn’t the church need to modernize?
BERGOGLIO: Finally, I’ve met someone who will advocate publicly
painting over the Sistine Chapel. with one of the contemporary street
artists. Are you sure you support this and in public?
BERGOGLIO: Forgive me, I was rude.
REPORTER: Won’t the new pope, don’t these cardinals realize what
they’ve gotta do, if they want to attract young people, to the church?
BERGOGLIO: I am a cardinal.
REPORTER: Won’t the new pope, don’t you and the other cardinals,
realize what they must do, if they want to attract young people, to
BERGOGLIO: I’ve explained the mysteries of the atom to rural young
people and also I’ve explained the Grace of God. And you know what?
They can understand both perfectly well. Frankly, I have more trouble
with adults, understanding both.
REPORTER: But they have done focus groups; if you want to spread your
message, you can’t have this position that’s anti-gay marriage and
BERGOGLIO: And you treat the church as a political institution.
REPORTER: So we were not gonna see any kind of change when it comes to
things that matter, like abortion or gay marriage?
BERGOGLIO: All eight of the men you will be talking to, are Catholic.
REPORTER: Okay, I understand. Let’s talk about your controversial
stand on poverty.
BERGOGLIO: You want it to be controversial?
REPORTER: But don’t you blame various governments around the world, for poverty?
BERGOGLIO: Some… Yes.
REPORTER: But you refuse to blame corporations for their role.
BERGOGLIO: Okay, they also told me you have a degree in economics. No
buyer, or seller either, enters into any exchange against his will. It
is the nature of the economy. Man is frail, and he makes mistakes and
sometimes is greedy and they enter into exchanges that don’t help
them. Sometimes they become poor, but they made choices. There is
nothing the Church can do, except try to educate people, to become
good consumers. Chiefly, for me, it is an education solution on that
side. And the Church has more schools around the globe, than any other
faith. I say teach the people to save their souls, and also teach them
how to not become poor. And how not to allow the government, to trick
them into poverty.
REPORTER: And you blame government.
BERGOGLIO: No, I blame the self-serving, politicians.
REPORTER: So your solution to poverty, is to change the nature of politics?
BERGOGLIO: Please feel free to broadcast this; I don’t want to be
Pope. Friend, you are a Socialist and your friends are Socialists. And
you are the reason for 70 years of misery in Russia. Europe now, is
seizing in pain, from your policies. You believe in the redistribution
of wealth and it makes entire populations poor. You want to
nationalize everything and bring every human endeavor, under your
control. You destroy a man’s incentive to take care of his very own
family, a crime against nature and nature’s God. You want social
control over populations and incrementally, you are making everything
against the law. Together this ideology creates more poverty today,
than all the corporations you vilify, have done in the history of man.
REPORTER: I’ve never heard such from a Cardinal. I’m not sure if you
are here to help yourself or to disqualify yourself.
BERGOGLIO: Please air this interview. People being dominated by
Socialists, need to know we don’t all have to be poor. Some poverty is
part of our being cast out of the Garden of Eden. But look at the
empire of dependency, created by Hugo Chavez. Promising them, tricking
them into worship of government and his very own person. Giving them
fish, but not allowing them to fish. If a fisherman does develop a
talent today, in Latin America; he is castigated and his catch stolen,
by the Socialists. He stops?
REPORTER: You would be the first Pope from the Americas.
BERGOGLIO: He stops fishing. I will not be Pope, but yes I am from Argentina.
REPORTER: And you didn’t want to be Pope?
BERGOGLIO: God didn’t want me to be Pope.
REPORTER: Perhaps he changed his mind?
REPORTER: Okay, I’m sorry. I feel like we are getting off on the wrong
path. I’m sorry.
BERGOGLIO: Yes, let’s be productive.
REPORTER: You are a classic Conservative Catholic Theologian?
BERGOGLIO: Of course, there’s politics clearly in the Curia,
throughout the Vatican, but in terms of church teaching, it’s not a
political institution. It’s religious.
REPORTER: I heard people, in fact, media people say, “Is this
cardinal, is he a liberal? Is he a conservative?”
BERGOGLIO: Tell them please, “He’s a Catholic.” It’s no more
complicated than that. Catholicism, is what it is. You don’t have to
believe it; you may not. You don’t have to follow it; you may not go
to Mass. But it’s not up to you to modernize us.
REPORTER: You see no room for reform?
BERGOGLIO: It’s not up to any religion, although some do this, ’cause
they want the money.’ They want the membership. But the Catholic
Church doesn’t do it. It’s not up to them to bend and shape and mold
itself to accommodate the shrinking depravity of a worldwide culture.
It’s to provide the exact opposite. It’s to provide a beacon out of
depravity, Socialism and sin, among other things.
REPORTER: If Pope, you would be bad news for the left.
BERGOGLIO: I won’t be Pope. But I am opposed to abortion. I’m opposed
to euthanasia. The Pro-Choice Movement, is a culture of death. I
oppose the demonic, same-sex marriage. I oppose gay adoption, on the
grounds that it is discriminatory to the child. I was exiled by the
Cristina Kirchner government, but I hold no grudge. How is this bad
REPORTER: John Paul II rescued you?
BERGOGLIO: He made me the Archbishop of Buenos Aires. Yes.
REPORTER: And so you feel like you owe the Right some sort of repayment?
BERGOGLIO: There are many values and many types of people. Perhaps it
is my interest in mathematics, but I’m the type of human who is
interested most, in the truth. God gave me a healthy love for the
truth. Loyalty, is only a virtue, if it is in support of the truth or
another important value.
REPORTER: Cristina Kirchner said you held a grudge.
BERGOGLIO: Funny, I’ve never spoken her name. Not once. And it is a
battle of ideas, not a battle of two or more people. I’m only
concerned with ideas.
REPORTER: She said you refused to speak up for Civil Rights Violations.
BERGOGLIO: As a spiritual leader, I opposed Cultural Modernization,
and so, I became a political enemy. I understand politics, as well as,
I do mathematics.
REPORTER: And the Jesuits, they were eager to cast you out, which they did.
BERGOGLIO: So, you are implying that I’m a vengeful Priest?
REPORTER: Do you feel that you need to erase the progress recently
made in Latin America?
BERGOGLIO: I say poverty. You say progress.
REPORTER: Let’s talk about poverty.
BERGOGLIO: Sure, there is voluntary poverty that is virtuous. Many
understood the nobility of making themselves independent of the
fleeting things of earth. They are distractions from our pursuit of
the truth. I have no problem with this. I only oppose, involuntary
REPORTER: That is what I thought you would say.
REPORTER: Because you are a, Capitalist, right?
BERGOGLIO: Yes, I think capital is needed to build a factory, a
parochial school, or a church or hospital, all. Do you oppose
factories or churches or hospitals?
REPORTER: Of course not, but don’t you think the capital is sucked out
of peoples’ hands, by greedy business types, to pay for these
BERGOGLIO: No, I think people agree, through their economic choices,
that some of their money goes to build these. Capital building should
be voluntary. Only when the politician confiscates their wealth, to
build government factories, government schools, government hospitals;
only then.., do the people not agree. Money given voluntarily, is
legitimate to build with. Money coerced from the people, is not
legitimate to build with, because it isn’t given voluntarily.
REPORTER: You are opposed to all government?
BERGOGLIO: No, of course not. But it isn’t the seat of wisdom in any
society I’ve seen in my life. The best government, was created by the
Americans, in which, they admitted that people are endowed by their
Creator and most of the administration of society was left to the
relationship between, God and man. However, slowly that has been
eroded by the atheists on the left, who would replace man’s
relationship with God, with a new relationship with an opportunist
like, Hugo Chavez.
REPORTER: I just found it fascinating that you were willing to stand
up to an entire government, in Argentina. You where cast aside. Didn’t
you care about your career?
BERGOGLIO: Yes, there are people who cave to worldly authority. Even Priests.
REPORTER: But you didn’t?
BERGOGLIO: No, I changed nothing. How did I have the power to change
anything in church teaching? My opinion? The Democrats, seeking
votes, only wanted me to change my opinion and legitimize their
decadence. I did not, as evidenced by the fact that I was teaching
high school math, in small isolated town.
REPORTER: I’m sorry that happened to you.
BERGOGLIO: Why don’t you feel for others, oppressed for their interest
REPORTER: Freedom isn’t punished anywhere, is it?
BERGOGLIO: Certainly it is.
REPORTER: In Latin America?
BERGOGLIO: I’m afraid Latin America is lost. The people of the entire
area are controlled by a bloc of Militant Socialist Regimes, in the
region, most prominently Venezuela, Ecuador, Bolivia and Nicaragua.
They have a gun, pointed at their head. So their heart is now
captured. Who will save them at this point?
REPORTER: So the game is over. Checkmate?
BERGOGLIO: Friend, I’ve been studying America this month, before the
Pope chose to resign. You must not have fear at speaking the truth. It
is for the salvation of souls and the recovery of Thomas Jefferson’s
people. America must not fall to the newly painted Communism. Even
the low information voters, don’t want America to be sold into
slavery. I pray they cast out the money changers, in their
government! What manner of government is there, that condones sin?
Abomination upon abomination – giving monies for the murder of
children, giving monies for the murder of the elderly? You are an
American. Your government, my child, has been infiltrated, by men of
REPORTER: These are pretty radical ideas.
BERGOGLIO: No. Perhaps reactionary. Radical means something different.
But a very long time ago, Khrushchev warned that we cannot expect
Americans to fly from Capitalism to Communism, but we can assist
their, ‘elected leaders,’ in giving Americans small injections of
Socialism, until they suddenly awake to find out they have Communism.
This is what is happening now in an ancient bastion of freedom. How
can America save Latin America, when they are slaves to the
REPORTER: I’m having a hard time digesting most of this.
BERGOGLIO: The truth can be painful. You look angry; do you want to
stop or ask a question? But you have created a new type of State, the
so-called, “Welfare State.” This has happened in order to respond to
the needs of the politically created, poor. However, intervening
directly is depriving the original society of its responsibility.
Families escape responsibility in the Welfare State. And churches even
escape responsibility. People stop giving to charity and see every
poor person as the government’s problem. I am a Catholic Priest and
there are no poor for me to take care of, they are made permanently
poor and have become the property of the politicians.
REPORTER: I’m not sure this interview is going to work.
BERGOGLIO: You asked and now you will listen, my son. The Social
Assistance State leads to a loss of human energies and an inordinate
increase of public agencies, which are dominated more by bureaucratic
thinking, than by real concern for helping people. Needs are best
understood and satisfied by people who are closest to them, who act as
neighbors and parish members, to those in need. It should be added
that certain kinds of demands, often call for a response which is not
simply material but which is capable of perceiving the deeper human
need. This is not to mention the Welfare State’s, excesses and abuses.
REPORTER: I think we are done.
BERGOGLIO: Wait. If I speak on the Ordination of women, on Celibacy,
on Divorce, will you air this interview and my message?
REPORTER: No, we are done.
BERGOGLIO: Partially what irritates me to the core, is the media’s
inability to look at anything without looking into the cause of the
various problems. People are made poor, so they will vote for the very
candidates, that made them poor.
REPORTER: Have a nice day and thanks for your time.
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